i do not believe every single thing that is taught but i most certainly have a love for those who do the will of God and whom i consider my allies and brethren. ***********************************************. “Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne. This chronology is critical, if you’re going to avoid mistakes like Evangelical scholar Norman Geisler’s Catholic conspiracy theory. I do not think the article, my response and Joe’s responses to those sought to prove or disprove that doctrine specifically . This fault, therefore, proves that this epistle is not the work of any apostle. Protestants have pointed to the passages we’re discussing as reason to reject 2 Maccabees as Scripture. You just SPOILED me. Perhaps, we are too focused on verses. http://www.ccel.org/ccel/aquinas/summa.XP_Q71_A5.html?scrBook=2Macc&scrCh=12&scrV=40#XP_Q71_A5-p2.1, “The donaries to the idols were not found on those dead so that they might be taken as a sign that they were carried off in reverence to the idols: but they took them as conquerors because they were due to them by right of war. but a simple understanding I got in life….. Objection 2: Further, the saints conform their will to God perfectly, so that they will only what God wills. But I didn’t address what’s perhaps the most common objection to both types of prayers, which is some variation of “But where do we see that in the Bible?” We saw yesterday that Scripture doesn’t condemn these prayers, but neither does it commend them … right? OOPS. Being that (aside from what Eastern Orthodox think) there is nothing one can do after one is dead to change one’s eternal state on the day of judgement: “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that every one may receive the things done in his BODY” (2 Cor 5:10). I do believe in the points that you have explained so well. It is the same reason I believe in the real presence. I believe that what makes the difference between saints – angels and people on Earth,being judgment – being forgiven… While we are here on Earth, we are still to be judged. This is an old post, so I probably won’t spend too much time in the comments, but what’s the basis for your argument? . When confronted some Catholics say we don’t pray to them, but we ask them to pray for us. Oh, Doulos, where has God hidden you for the past two millenia when you could have set us all straight so long ago? It was a straight NO when I asked him if he could still pray for his friends when he dies. His family is mentioned twice (here and in 2 Tim 4:19), though it was Onesiphorus himself who was helpful to Paul in prison and rendered much service to the community of Ephesus.” The second mention is striking, since Paul doesn’t ask Timothy to greet Onesiphorus. If Onesiphorus isn’t dead, why is Paul praying for him and his family separately? Priests read prayers that were not written by them Sounds like you’re going through what many of us had. We dont say that it’s dead. You feel so pity after having accepted the faith you have right now, and you understand each other as you all have experienced in common. It would be a strange position to say that a person can pray to the Saints if he’s in Hades, but not if he’s still on Earth.”Well, the Scripture actually has examples of those in Hades that explicitly see saints (both in the Gospel of Luke). Connect here with Matthew and let him answer any question you might have. 15 Bible Verses about All Believers Are Saints ... giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light. First, praying for those who were righteous among the dead would not need prayers to avail them of sin of idolatry, because no one can be availed of that sin according to Catholic dogma anyway. And it is possible for someone not to go to Purgatory before heaven and we dont know how time works in purgatory. Most “Bible-believing” Christians object to the Catholic practice of praying to the saints. If hell is eternal suffering, still my faith tells me that we can help pray for each other, saints – angels and people – on – Earth, that God may still be Merciful …. I believe that praising goes with praying. God ignores the prayers of the wicked, and the prayers of the righteous are effective. 12:44, which says, “For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead.” The “fallen” here explicitly refers to those who fell in battle, as we see from 2 Macc. Amulets used for luck in the Scripture are not specifically idols of specific gods. Do I remember those days of hubris when I was a Protestant! . Jesus’ parable of “Lazarus and the rich man” takes place largely as a series of prayers that a rich man in torment, prays to Abraham, starting in Luke 16:22-24: The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. Hence, these were not mere good luck charms in the Biblical sense, but idols. Again, this is not a necessary reading, but not an impossible one. “Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne. When Jesus teaches about these judgements below, He describes various penalties for sins. Amen, but my argumentin my tweet was about the receiver of prayer. May the Lord grant mercy to the family of Onesiphorus because he often gave me new heart and was not ashamed of my chains. . Also, there are many protestants who consider themselves to be saints because of salvation. for miracles. You are assignments ng mortal values to Gods character. No Meat on Fridays is a discipline not a doctrine and fasting and penances are encouraged in the Bible Why not just have a faith in saints and have others to pray for you when you die? . A lot of this controversy turns upon a subtle mistake: Protestants tend to assume that prayer = worship. You do not need a k diator to get His full attention. And if/when you convert, contact us at Ignitum and lets tell your story. I can understand your pain (I feel it, too — and often). Learn how your comment data is processed. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. What did Christ tell the thief on the cross “was it well sir I will see after enough of family and friends pray to get out of purgatory” No the one true Christ said you will be with me tonight. It is not wrong to pray for the dead, the issue is we do not know exactly why we pray for the dead. Hence, the intercession and prayers are for the righteous because of the defiling effect of the unrighteous upon the righteous. Your email address will not be published. That is as if you were to invite your opponent to stab you with a pistol. Hear me when I call, O God of my righteousness: thou hast enlarged me when I was in distress; have mercy upon me, and hear my prayer. Of uncertain affinity; an occasion, i.e. May God richly bless you, theophilus! The Bible tells us that he prayed for the dead, praises him for it, and then tells us that he thereby made atonement for them that they might be delivered from their sin. From those three passages, we can gather that the saints in Heaven interact with God. It’s likely because Onesiphorus is departed. 12:40 (“this was why these men had fallen”). Third thing to consider. In proving the Biblical case for these Scriptural practices, there’s an easy way and a hard way. Come on, with all respect, you are Catholic convert, tell me, isnt there anything in this prayer that really makes your hair rise? . Yet profound veneration for saints permeates the very same scriptures in which one finds the prohibitions against idolatry. The saints therefore do not pray for us, at least before the resurrection. goes to heaven is a saint. if praying to the dead is absolutely NOT acceptable to God, are we NOT faithful enough also that we can’t help those people who are in hell? Protestants pray that God may be merciful to their loved ones simply because God is outside of time and we know He can answer such prayers. That’s a contradiction. Here are my top seven Bible verses about the saints of God. I disagree completely. Currently my faith is in God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. May God bless you. It does not, however, absolutely negate relations with angels or heavenly saints. . But it also shows how irrational it is to assume – without any Scriptural evidence – that those on Earth can’t pray to the Saints. They just don’t continue with the practice, simply because it is not spelled out in Scripture.” So praying for the dead is okay, but not doing it a lot? ^^^^^^^^ Hoo boy! Objection 4: Further, if the saints in heaven pray for us, the prayers of the higher saints would be more efficacious; and so we ought not to implore the help of the lower saints' prayers but only of those of the higher saints. In terms of services that Onesiphorus rendered, you’re right that it’s in the past tense. I would not go as far as to say that in absolutely every circumstance, this is what would occur, just as Job was righteous and instead of a blessing he was put through trial. Is that right? But if that were the case, why would no Jew or Catholic have ever noticed this?”. I objected to your interpretation of 2 Maccabees because it is not about Catholic-styled prayers for the dead. Being told to not read the Bible just ask your priest just by looking at online calendars, since there many lesser-known for my family here only on Earth and not anymore in heaven? You’re making the very argument that I warned against. Often all that it takes for someone to be canonized is a http://www.salvationisfromthejews.com/justarticles.html#Catholic_Devotion_to_the_Saints_in_the. And, because we don’t know if a person’s guilt is one meriting Hellfire (i.e.. Mortal sin) or not, as we ourselves are not the judge, we pray for all of our beloved dead, having hope for their souls and recommending them to the great mercy of God. Learn how your comment data is processed. This argument doesn’t make a lot of sense from a Catholic perspective. “This objection doesn’t sense from a Catholic, Protestant, or Jewish perspective, because it’s premised on the idea that we can somehow be assured that they’re in Hell…Underlying your confidence that the fallen are in Hell is the idea that they were idolaters. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection. The Pope is the succesor of Peter to whom Christ said feed my Sheep and you are the Rock on which the Church is built. Is it true that Scripture is silent about praying to and for the Saints? Click edit button to change this text. Verses 9-10 speak of a new song sung in heaven. It would cause them to think but in the end they were to set in their ways. It seems to me to be eisegesis. Revelation is the most symbolic book in the Bible, and in this passage the “prayers of the saints” are symbolized as golden bowls of incense, held by twenty-four elders. But after Luther came up with the doctrine of justification by faith alone, his theology led him to choose a smaller canon. Given all of this, think about what Scriptural silence would actually mean. (Rev 21:27), Now, this is amazing, it really is.. How on earth does this mean you can pray to saints? You do know what a dream is don’t you? 3. I agree: Aquinas’ interpretation seems both logical and even probable. Both of these are, you claim, contradictions of Catholicism. Jesus assured His disciples that whatever they asked in His name—meaning in His will—would be granted (John 15:16; 16:23). ), and then it’s got the fact that Christ presents the rich man as praying to Abraham, and there’s not a hint that this is inappropriate. Jesus have spoken: Luke 20:27). Reply to Objection 5: It is because the saints while living merited to pray for us, that we invoke them under the names by which they were known in this life, and by which they are better known to us: and also in order to indicate our belief in the resurrection, according to the saying of Ex.3:6, "I am the God of Abraham," etc. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people” (verse 8).
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